Question of Faith
A weekly question of faith answered by Cleveland Catholics. Fr. Damian Ference, Vicar of Evangelization and Deacon Mike Hayes Director of Young Adult Ministry in the Diocese of Cleveland co-host with frequent guests from the Diocesan Office who join in the conversation.
Question of Faith
What's Not Working In Ministry Today?
Ever wondered how cultural shifts impact the way we minister in contemporary society? Join us as we explore this and much more with Dr. Matthew Carey Jordan, the newly appointed Vice President of Academic Affairs at Borromeo Seminary and St. Mary's Seminary and Graduate School of Theology. Dr. Jordan shares his compelling journey from his evangelical background to embracing Catholicism, and discusses his ambitious plans to enhance intellectual formation programs for both clergy and laypeople at the Seminary. Dive into his vision of creating new avenues for Catholics to deepen their faith and understanding in the 21st century, moving beyond traditional degree programs.
In this thought-provoking episode, we delve into how being in a now apostolic age can inspire modern evangelism and the crucial role of contextualizing the gospel message for today's audiences. This is developed from the book, From Christendom to Apostolic MIssion. There is an upcoming book study on this which is entitled "The Mission Series and Study." Here's an old podcast that Fr Damian did with Dr Jordan.
Church Search goes to St. Agnes-Our Lady of Fatima in Cleveland where they celebrated 60 years of service by our colleague Sister Jane Nesmith.
We also touch upon forthcoming events, including a live production of Flannery O'Connor's "Everything that Rises Must Converge" and a stimulating book study on "From Christendom to Apostolic Mission." Packed with insights, this episode is a must-listen for anyone involved in ministry or interested in the dynamic interplay between faith and culture.
On today's Question of Faith. What's not working in ministry today? Hey everybody, this is Question of Faith. I am Deacon Mike Hayes. I am the Young Adult Ministry Director here in the Diocese of Cleveland.
Fr Damian Ference:And I'm Father Damian Ference, the Vicar for Evangelization.
Dr Matthew Jordan:And I'm Dr Matthew Carey Jordan, the Vice President of Academic Affairs at Borromeo Seminary and St Mary's Seminary and Graduate School of Theology.
Fr Damian Ference:Welcome aboard, Dr Jordan.
Dr Matthew Jordan:Thank you very much for having me. I'm very excited to be here.
Deacon Mike Hayes:New guy in town.
Dr Matthew Jordan:That's right, yeah, long-time listener. First-time guest.
Deacon Mike Hayes:Yeah, not in town necessarily, that's right.
Dr Matthew Jordan:But new guy at the seminary. New guy at the seminary we're recording this in in mid-September and I just started working for the diocese on July 1st of this year. So very much still kind of figuring things out, getting my feet wet and all that stuff.
Fr Damian Ference:Tell us your role. What are you doing exactly?
Dr Matthew Jordan:So my official title is Vice President of Academic Affairs and, broadly speaking, what that means is that, as things continue to evolve at the seminary, I'll be the person who has responsibility for the different degree programs that we offer. I think most people are aware that we have a seminary here in Cleveland and, of course, that the men who are discerning the priesthood are studying for a graduate degree. They all earn a Master of Divinity degree. Some of them also earn a Master of Theology degree, and that's a program that's open to lay people as well. We also have the Doctor of Ministry program as well. We also have the Doctor of Ministry program, in which Deacon Mike here is a participant, yes, and we have the master's degree in diaconal ministry as well.
Dr Matthew Jordan:More broadly, though, I think I expect that, as things move along, we're going to be trying to offer more and more programs that speak to the intellectual formation of Catholics in Cleveland, without necessarily leading directly toward a degree. We want to be a resource for people, whether they're clergy or lay people, who are interested in thinking more deeply about what it means to be a Catholic in the 21st century, to be more formed in their minds in the image of Christ, to be more formed in their minds in the image of Christ, and our hope is that we'll be able to offer new kinds of programs and things to speak to that need Cool, and where did you come from?
Dr Matthew Jordan:So I'm originally from Northeast Ohio. I was born in Shaker Heights and I grew up in Hudson and then I had a kind of pretty radical religious conversion as a kid. I didn't grow up Catholic, I was sort of culturally Christian, and as a freshman at Ohio University I got really interested in questions of faith, to borrow from the podcast title and I became a very serious evangelical.
Dr Matthew Jordan:I thought that I might end up as a pastor of a church, wound up instead pursuing a career in higher education. I went on for graduate study in philosophy and wound up as a professor for a few years. Then was working in administration. Much of that time I was in Alabama. I spent about eight years in Montgomery Alabama as a philosophy professor.
Deacon Mike Hayes:Roll tide.
Dr Matthew Jordan:War eagle, as we Auburn fans say. And then, when the opportunity came about six years ago now to, I guess, seven years now to apply for a job at Cuyahoga Community College, I jumped at it and was delighted to be hired there, and so I spent about six years working for Tri-C go Triceratops. That is a great mascot, it's one of the best in all of America. And now I'm delighted to be still in higher ed, but working for the church Cool that's great.
Fr Damian Ference:While you were at Tri-C, you actually helped me put together the possibility of bringing Everything that Rises Must Converge to town, and they're going to be at Tri-C. This live Flannery O'Connor story. October 4th and 5th right.
Dr Matthew Jordan:Yes, yes, yes, that's very exciting.
Fr Damian Ference:Thanks for the reminder about that. I need to get my tickets. Yeah, you do. So I'm just writing all the Actually, mary's helping me. We're writing all the deans of the English departments and all the Catholic colleges and all the Catholic high schools around this week. So it'll be cool, excellent.
Dr Matthew Jordan:And I'm reminded about a year ago, you and I had a great conversation on a podcast I was hosting for Tri-C. Right so if people are interested in hearing. Father Ference on Flannery O'Connor. Look up More Human, Damien Ference, and I think you'll find that conversation we had on the Hillbilly Thomist.
Deacon Mike Hayes:Yeah, check it out, nice. We'll throw that in the show notes, along with everything that rises must converge and how you can get tickets for that.
Dr Matthew Jordan:It's going to be a cool production. I was really excited to be able to get that ball rolling last spring.
Fr Damian Ference:Yeah, and it's going to be Rome, New York, Houston, Raleigh, I mean it's a lot of places, so it'll be cool. So let's talk a little bit about Speaking of books.
Deacon Mike Hayes:Books and culture.
Fr Damian Ference:So a couple of years ago, Bishop Malesic gifted all the priests in the diocese with a book called From Christendom to Apostolic Age. Is that how it's called? Called From Christendom to Apostolic Age? Is that how?
Dr Matthew Jordan:it's called From Christendom to Apostolic Mission
Fr Damian Ference:Mission. Okay, okay, and it was written. We think the primary author is Monsignor James Shea, but it's a team effort and it was a great book.
Dr Matthew Jordan:Still is a great book.
Fr Damian Ference:Yes, it was super helpful to read for folks in the diocese and because of that, you and Dr Beth Rath, dr Joel Johnson, jen Ricard, maria Wancata did a study last year on Genesis Agenda by Abigail Favale and it was met with such enthusiasm, great response, that we thought do another book study this year. So you're actually doing the same book that the bishop gave. So tell us a little bit about why this book is so important and why do you think it will be helpful to the people of God.
Dr Matthew Jordan:That's a great question. I think that this is one of the most important books that's been published in the last few years and again, the title From Christendom to Apostolic mission speaks to a change in the culture that I think anybody who's, you know, older than 15 has probably witnessed in the world we live in. The historical story is complicated, of course, but on a very real, even if a little bit superficial level, you know, if you're like.
Dr Matthew Jordan:I am and you're in your, let's say, middle age. You've seen a number of changes in culture where, growing up in the 1980s and 1990s, the broader culture shared a more or less Christian sensibility. Right, there were lots of disagreements and certainly not everybody was professing or practicing any form of Christian faith, but there was a general sense that it's appropriate to believe in God, that the Christian scriptures have some kind of relevance and authority or at least an importance, if not true authority.
Deacon Mike Hayes:Judeo-Christian values were sort of the call of the day.
Dr Matthew Jordan:Yeah, kind of what we think of as your sort of basic Christian values were kind of normal American values at the same time. And the ground has really shifted and part of what's happened is we found ourselves moving from Christendom to appeal to the title of the book right, that is a culture that's deeply informed by a Christian picture of reality to an apostolic age, alluding back to the very first century of the church's existence. If you imagine what it would have been like for the apostles themselves, the first generation or two of Christians living in a Roman empire where a Christian view of reality was not the norm, right, they had to figure out how to do church in that context. And we're finding ourselves, as we get well into the third decade of the 21st century, in a similar kind of position where you can't assume that the person who moves into the house next to yours is likely to be a churchgoer or believe in God.
Fr Damian Ference:Or believe that the human person is more than just a clump of cells or matter.
Fr Damian Ference:Or random accidents, right? Or that there is life after death, or that we do have free will. Very basic things that were often presumed in Christendom cannot be, and you make a big mistake if you think people share your worldview and they don't, because then you can't even get any traction in conversation. It's not even a shared language anymore. Correct, right? So I found the book to be quite helpful. I'm so glad you all are doing it. And it's five different locations around the diocese and it's four different meetings. Is that right Through September? Is that how it goes?
Dr Matthew Jordan:That sounds right. I should have checked on the calendar but the very first meetings are taking place, I believe on September 30th.
Fr Damian Ference:Oh, okay, so it's through October.
Dr Matthew Jordan:It's the first week of October and then it's basically weekly through the month of October.
Fr Damian Ference:Yeah, and if you've not done a book club before. They're really fun. And if you say I'm not a great reader, well, being part of a book club is good because the responsibility and accountability are built in. You read and then you get there with people who have read the same thing you have. You have a seasoned professor to walk you through the salient points of the chapter, and then some good conversation, and then you do it again the following week and when you're done, you've learned a lot, you've grown a lot, You've been formed. You'll also meet some new friends along the way, more connections in the diocese, maybe think things that you haven't thought before, and it's so helpful, yeah.
Dr Matthew Jordan:Yeah, it really is. I hope that nobody will use their fear of reading as an excuse not to come, because it really it's the perfect. I think these groups are perfect for that kind of person, frankly.
Deacon Mike Hayes:What would that be? Bibliophobia, Fear of reading?
Dr Matthew Jordan:Yeah, exactly and if I can make a special plea, I don't know how many of our diocesan priests listen to this podcast. I assume all of them do.
Fr Damian Ference:Probably more than once. I think all but two, just kidding, probably two.
Dr Matthew Jordan:But one of the sessions and it happens to be the one that I myself am leading is intended to be exclusively for priests.
Fr Damian Ference:And so.
Dr Matthew Jordan:I hope that a lot of the priests from the diocese will have their interest piqued. Maybe you know, maybe some of them received that book a couple of years ago, been meaning to read it. Maybe this is the excuse to join with a group of other priests and one lay person to talk about it. Pick it back up, that's cool.
Deacon Mike Hayes:Take a read. That's fun. Yeah, I mean, it sort of reflects my experience on campus for many years, and probably yours at Tri-C too. You know, it's like I used to say when the campus ministry office would be open, I would say you know? Well, you know a few people will find us, the ones who said, oh yeah, I have to find other campus ministry offices, but that's a very small percentage. It's an increasingly small percentage.
Dr Matthew Jordan:And I'm glad you brought that up, deacon, because I mean, I'm reminded and this is a good illustration of the shift from Christendom to apostolic mission when I first started teaching college classes about gosh 20, 25 years ago now, you could presume at least a basic acquaintance with at least the vocabulary of the faith in a normal college student.
Dr Matthew Jordan:And as recently as this past spring, I mean, I was still working at Tri-C and I had the privilege of teaching a class on the philosophical writings of CS Lewis, who's a name that's probably familiar to a lot of listeners, not a Catholic, but one of the great Christian writers of the 20th century. And I found, after teaching the class once or twice, that I had to start it off with just an overview of what Christianity is. I had to introduce terms like Trinity and Incarnation, and a significant percentage, I think. The last class I taught, a majority of the students found that language completely unfamiliar. They simply didn't know what was meant by saying that Christians believe in the Incarnation, and that's a really good, I think, illustration of how the cultural dynamics have changed and how we need to think about changing the way we minister in America today. Right, we have people who are ranging from.
Deacon Mike Hayes:Well, I don't mind religion.
Dr Matthew Jordan:You know, it's fine.
Deacon Mike Hayes:You know, not be all or end all, but it's fine, you know I'll do it if I need to or when I want to, to even mild hostility toward religion, sometimes more than mild.
Dr Matthew Jordan:I can say from experience yes, I can also yes.
Deacon Mike Hayes:And then maybe even just people who've had an experience and just voted out. You know like I've been part of this, but I don't want to be part of this anymore.
Dr Matthew Jordan:But you know, part of what's exciting Deacon is that it's uncharted waters for a lot of people.
Deacon Mike Hayes:Yes, that's right. So suddenly, again.
Dr Matthew Jordan:for those of us who are middle-aged and older, we find ourselves for the first time now offering something that's kind of new and fresh. People don't have that. They might have some assumptions that are in there, but more and more certainly younger people are coming to questions of faith without really all that many preconceptions and there's a chance, I think, for people to hear the gospel message afresh.
Fr Damian Ference:Yeah, rather than I was raised this way. I know everything. I went to Catholic school and maybe you have some of the concepts or teachings in mind, but your heart has never been penetrated. That's a lot harder sell than someone who's wait. So there's a God. And then that God took on flesh and became one of us and suffered and died and then rose from the dead. That's very interesting.
Dr Matthew Jordan:Yeah, you start to discover this is an extraordinary thing that we believe in.
Fr Damian Ference:Right, it's the greatest story ever told, right, yeah.
Deacon Mike Hayes:We used to say all the time it's not that people have been disaffected from the church, it's that they haven't been affected by the church to begin with, and there's some beauty in that right there is.
Dr Matthew Jordan:It's like we don't have to break down any baggage at this point. You know, now we could just kind of present things Amen and yea, verily. I mean, there's a lot of doom and gloom out there among certainly people who are concerned about the direction of the culture, and I understand that and I think there are reasons to be concerned, certainly from a Catholic point of view. But you know, let's not forget that there's some room for real optimism here. Look at that first century church and it started with 12 guys right and look what happened and maybe we can be a part of a similar kind of renewal and revival in our time and at our place in history.
Deacon Mike Hayes:So tell me a little bit about the book study Like what are you hoping to cut? I mean obviously the book, but you know to? I mean obviously the book, but what kind of things do you talk about throughout this thing? Great question.
Dr Matthew Jordan:I mean, the book itself helps us to orient ourselves to the way the culture has changed and to have a sense for the sorts of assumptions that people bring to the table as contemporary Americans and help us to think, and I hope what we'll be able to do with it is to think creatively and again in a sort of fresh and new way about like, what does it mean for us and I mean us in the broadest sense as Catholics here what does it mean for us to minister effectively in Northeast Ohio in the 2020s, the 2030s and beyond, Whether one is a priest or a layperson, whether someone is working for a parish or has, you know, what we call a real job?
Deacon Mike Hayes:Well, that sounds cool. It sounds like it'll be a lot of fun to kind of engage with the book in that way. We had to read this over the summer again for me, since we read it as a staff as well for the doctor ministry program. So my cohort's going to be sitting and we've actually been doing this a lot in class already is kind of saying well, in the book it says this Now how does that apply to Paul's letters and how does that apply to here? So we're moving all around with it so it should be fun.
Fr Damian Ference:Philosophy is the art of making helpful distinctions and I just find that that distinction between Christendom and apostolic age, if people can understand it it becomes so helpful, and especially in the work that Dr Jordan's doing at the seminary, because it's a lay ecclesial ministry. Borneo, st Mary's, the diaconate offices there are continuing ongoing formation. If one doesn't understand the shift that has taken place, you can have all the intention, great intention in the world and good information and good doctrine, and be totally ineffective.
Fr Damian Ference:So it really is important to understand where the culture is and how to read it and how to engage it, and that each age has its own way of being engaged and what may have worked even 20 years ago may not work today. The same truth is always at work and the same Jesus is like the same yesterday, today and forever. But presenting him it's helpful to know how. As Aristotle would say, that which is received is received according to the mode of the receiver. So how do people understand things? How have they experienced things? How do you enter in? I'm always looking where's my traction? How am I going to find a way in to this conversation, and I think this book study is super helpful in doing that.
Dr Matthew Jordan:I hope so. I mean, if I can piggyback on that really quickly. There's a great model for this in the scriptures, in the book of Acts, which you know lays out those early years of the church and especially the missionary work done by St Peter and Paul In Acts, chapter 17,. St Paul goes to Greece right, and if you read this part of the Bible you'll find for a couple of chapters, st Paul keeps going to cities that have a large Jewish population and every time he goes to a synagogue and when he engages with his fellow Jews he argues from the scriptures Because he recognizes that's the shared territory, that's the common ground. Mosaic law.
Deacon Mike Hayes:How does this fit in?
Dr Matthew Jordan:All those prophecies you know Isaiah and Ezekiel and others. But when he gets to Greece, when he gets to Athens, rather, he finds himself in a place where there's not a substantial Jewish population. So he doesn't go to a synagogue, he goes to the Areopagus. He goes to Mars Hill, the place where the philosophers used to gather, and St Luke records and acts that this is where the Stoics and the Epicureans used to get together and debate the issues of the day. And St Paul shows up and he starts preaching the gospel. And it's so interesting if you look at how he does it.
Dr Matthew Jordan:He appeals to two sources, neither of which is the Bible. One is an inscription he saw on a tomb on his way up to Mars Hill and the other is a pagan poet, if you know the phrase, the one in whom we live and move and have our being. That comes from the Bible, but not originally from the Bible. It's a line that St Paul quotes from a pagan poet where he recognizes. You know there's truth in this, and now I want to tell you more about the truth you've already recognized, I think. To go back to this question of what is this book study about, I think part of what we want to help people do is think about again our cultural moments. And where are there those cultural touchstones? Where can we use the convictions and commitments of our neighbors, friends, colleagues in order to help them see the broader picture of reality that the Christian gospel gives us?
Deacon Mike Hayes:And where is the church already speaking to the culture and the culture speaking back to the church? You know, where are we saying the same things and where are we saying different things.
Fr Damian Ference:Yes, I think too, noticing Paul preparing to speak preach at the Areopagus, did his cultural research on the way there. Yeah, he was looking where's my traction, where are my roads in, because he knew the gospel and he's trying to figure out how do I speak in such a way where this will affect the hearts of my hearers, and not everybody. You know. Some were like, oh, we'll listen to you tomorrow, but he did win over some converts in that way.
Fr Damian Ference:Some of them laughed at him right, and the Bible records that too, which is fine, but I like that he's always looking for a way in which is what we have to be doing too.
Deacon Mike Hayes:It's like learning a new language right. You know, you learn the language of the culture and then speak a word that will rouse them, so to speak. All right, so we've been traveling around. You were over at a church this weekend for our colleague, Sister Jane correct.
Fr Damian Ference:Yeah, sister Jane I think we've talked about this already is celebrating 60 years as a religious, as a consecrated religious, and so the black Catholic community had. Well, they celebrated their regular 1030 mass, but some extra bells and whistles at that mass and then a nice dinner banquet after, with some tributes. I wasn't able to be there the whole time, but I was able to give a little speech and visit for a little while there and it was a wonderful event. So if you haven't been there, it's right on Lexington Avenue, across from League Park. It's actually, I believe, the newest church building in the Diocese of Cleveland and Fr James Watson, ofm CAP, is the pastor there. A very vibrant community. Lots going on in the community too in terms of social outreach. Catholic Charities is right around the corner. There's the Fatima Center there. They have a great banquet hall, they have a wonderful reception area and it's a great community.
Fr Damian Ference:And you will be welcomed there.
Deacon Mike Hayes:Yeah, certainly, and the music's off the hook as the kids say. Exactly so.
Fr Damian Ference:it's AOur Lady of ST. Fatima and St Agnes
Deacon Mike Hayes:Fatima. St Agnes, . All right, so readings for this coming week. For the 24th Sunday in Ordinary Time I want to take a look at the Gospel. For the 24th Sunday in Ordinary Time. I want to take a look at the Gospel. Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. And at this he turned around and, looking at his disciples, rebuked Peter and said Get behind me, satan. You were thinking not as God does, but as human beings do. I'm preaching this weekend at St Paul the Apostle in New York, actually for a little mass Thanksgiving I'm having there. One of the things I think I'm going to talk about a little bit is well, what would it feel like to hear the person who you admire the most call you the devil? Can't be fun. And he also goes from like being the star pupil to being the end of the class. You know he says you are the Messiah. Then a couple minutes later he says no, no, you got it all wrong, you know.
Dr Matthew Jordan:But you know, there's two great encouragements in that. One is, I mean if St Peter of all people could be addressed like this by our Lord, like praise God, right.
Dr Matthew Jordan:Because I'm a mess but Peter turned out okay, right, and if he turned out okay, maybe I can too. Yeah, that's right. The other thing that stands out to me though maybe this ties nicely into talking about intellectual formation I'm very interested in questions of apologetics and defending the faith, and when people ask can we trust the Gospels, Are these narratives reliable? It's worth thinking about the fact that what we have in the church's own witness to itself is this account of her first great leader after the Lord himself completely screwing up.
Dr Matthew Jordan:And if this was just made-up stuff, if they were just, you know, trying to pull the wool over people's eyes, trying to run a scam, why would they write it?
Deacon Mike Hayes:Why in the world?
Dr Matthew Jordan:would you include stories that make you look this bad? The fact that this is in the Gospel of Mark Mark being Peter's own assistant and sidekick is a very encouraging piece of evidence that gives us good reason to trust that this is a historically trustworthy record.
Deacon Mike Hayes:If you want to be a good disciple, look at all the things that the disciples do and then don't do those things. Well said.
Fr Damian Ference:The first reading puts the Gospel in context, because the first reading is from Isaiah and it's about the suffering servant kind of predicting. You know, I gave my back to those who beat me cheeks to those who plucked my beard. So here in the gospel then Peter acknowledges he's the Messiah and then Jesus is like all right, cool. Now guess what? The Son of man is going to have to suffer, and so he's going to embody what Isaiah said is going to be true. And that's what Peter doesn't like. Because, wait, if you're going to be the Lord, you shouldn't have to suffer.
Fr Damian Ference:And Jesus is showing him look, the way to life is through death, it's through suffering, and not only for Jesus himself, but Peter's going to have to learn that lesson with his own life as he will hand his life over. So I think with my preaching this weekend I'm going to go with suffering, because if you've lived long enough, you've experienced it, and if you haven't, you will. There's no escaping it in this fallen world, and the Lord I mean the good news is that he enters into that with us. We're never alone in it, and I don't think you can ever hear that enough, because people's hearts are really hurt.
Deacon Mike Hayes:And of course the first reading is always one of those fabulous flubs and lecturing where someone will say my face I did not shield from buffets and spitting oh, that's funny. I very rarely shield my face from a buffet either, and if I'm at a buffet I certainly don't want to be spitting.
Dr Matthew Jordan:You've got to put that shield up. Put the shield up for a good father.
Deacon Mike Hayes:Yes, alright, so, dr Matt Jordan, thank you so much for being with us here on Question of Faith. Thank you very much for having me. It's a pleasure, Always good. We'll put all those things in the show notes about the book study and about everything must everything that arises must converge and we'll have this and a whole lot more here next time on Question of Faith.
