Question of Faith
A weekly question of faith answered by Cleveland Catholics. Fr. Damian Ference, Vicar of Evangelization and Deacon Mike Hayes Director of Young Adult Ministry in the Diocese of Cleveland co-host with frequent guests from the Diocesan Office who join in the conversation. Sponsored by Briefcase Marketing--check them out at https://www.Briefcase.marketing
Question of Faith
Is Racism STILL a Sin?
SPONSOR: Briefcase Marketing
Racism remains a destructive and persistent evil infecting our nation despite many promising strides toward equality and justice. It is still a sin that divides many. What does church teaching tells us about racism and how does faith offer solutions to this complex issue.
Some highlights:
• Racism arises when a person holds their race as superior and judges others as inferior, leading to exclusion or discrimination
• The bishops' 2018 letter "Open Wide Our Hearts" explicitly states that racist acts are sinful because they violate justice
• Dr. James Knight explains race as a social construct designed to separate and rank people
• Looking at everyone through the lens of being created in God's image helps move beyond racism
• The civil rights movement was fundamentally religious, rooted in shared dignity given by God
• Modern polarization prevents meaningful conversation about race and other divisive issues
• Humility enables us to listen to others' experiences and practice empathy across differences
• Racism exists not just in individuals but has crept into systems requiring structural change
• Most people occupy the middle ground between extremes but aren't represented in media narratives
• Creating partnerships across community lines allows for co-created solutions to racial division
• Simple actions like inviting people from different backgrounds to social gatherings builds bridges
SPONSOR: Briefcase Marketing
At Briefcase Marketing, we create marketing that inspires action and delivers results. We will:
- Clarify your message to attract the right audience.
- Streamline your website to convert more visitors into customers, donors or volunteers.
- Create consistency to build trust and deepen relationships across every marketing platform (Emails, Ads, Social Media, Etc).
Check out just two of their recent successful clients who we know well.
Theology of the Body CLE
St. John Cantius Parish
Church search goes Ecumenical! Dr Knight is the Pastor at HouseofHealing.org
Whose vision was this? To set all this up, kind of ours with communications, yeah, that's cool.
Speaker 2:Just anything we can do to have a broader reach.
Speaker 3:Yeah and be relevant, right, Mm-hmm, all right, here we go. Three, two, one. On today's question of faith is racism still a sin? Hey, everybody, this is Question of Faith. I'm Deacon Mike Hayes. I am the Director of Young Adult Ministry here in the Diocese of Cleveland.
Speaker 2:And I'm Father Damian Ferencz, the Vicar for Evangelization.
Speaker 1:Hi, I'm the guest. I'm Dr James Knight, with Leading with Humility and also Pastor Church in Elyria, Ohio called House of Healing Awesome, very nice, dr Knight welcome back to 1404 here at the Diocese of Cleveland.
Speaker 2:We've been friends for some time, but this is your first time on the podcast.
Speaker 3:True, it's excellent, and I'm the director of ecumenical relations here also at the diocese, which I forgot to say up front, which is very cool yeah.
Speaker 2:I think it's the first time we've had a non-Catholic pastor on our show.
Speaker 3:I think you're right. So if we had a bell we would ring it. So is racism a sin. We wanted to start out talking about that. Boy, times are rough, huh.
Speaker 2:Either we're racists all the time or we're not racist at all. Right, in the United States, and we live in a country and in a space that is very polarized right now. So, as Deacon Mike just said, in terms of the race conversation, there are those who will say that racism is the biggest problem in the United States and then there are those who will say that there is no race problem in the United States. There are those who will say that we need to open the borders completely and those will say shut down the borders completely. There are those who will say government programs will solve every problem and others will say we don't need any government program. So we live in a time that is highly polarized and what we're hoping to do on this particular podcast is to offer the nuance and be in the space in between where we can talk intelligently, listen respectfully and actually dig down below the ideological talk to the real issues at hand here.
Speaker 2:Where real people live, right, right, right, and I understand the way that the media works. People get angry or they get afraid, and that's what drives headlines and that's what drives clicks and all that. And that's why we don't have a million listeners every week, because we do try to offer the nuance and have rational, intelligent, sober conversations here.
Speaker 2:So let's start with a church document. Uscc put out this document in 2018 called Open Wide Our Hearts the Enduring Call to Love A Pastoral Letter Against Racism. And so let's just answer the question right off the bat. As bishops of the Catholic Church in the United States, we want to address one particularly destructive and persistent evil. Despite many promising strides in our country, racism still infects our nation. And then the bishops write racism arises when, either consciously or unconsciously, a person holds that his or her own race or ethnicity is superior and therefore judges persons of other races or ethnicities as inferior and unworthy of equal regard. When this conviction or attitude leads individuals, groups, to exclude, ridicule, mistreat or unjustly discriminate against persons on the basis of the race or ethnicity, it is sinful. Racist acts are sinful because they violate justice. So there's the answer to our question Is racism a sin? Still a sin? Yes, it is. And then I guess the next question is well, what do we do about it and how do we talk about it? If that's the case, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:What do you think, james?
Speaker 1:That's a great question, you know. I was doing a session out in Shaker. A bunch of churches came together and a lady elderly she was saying like when are we going to get beyond race? And I said that's a great question, you know, because when we think about it from a biblical perspective, there's only one race and the idea of race is a social construct, of race is a social construct and it's important for us to understand that, to understand that it was invented to separate people, rank people and so forth. And so if it was invented to say this person is at the top of the food chain, this person is at the bottom, the question that we have to throw up and think about is well, as long as we keep playing on this playground called race, if it was designed to favor some and not others, will we ever get to a place where we're able to make sense and kind of?
Speaker 1:all play together and so forth. I'm not sure. That is a very complicated question, but I do think that the Bible has the answers, that our faith has the answer that if we think about everybody being created in the image and likeness of God and we try to look at each other through that faithful lens, I think it does help for us to move beyond that sin of racism and to be able to regard each other. I think we forget that too, like the civil rights movement was fundamentally a religious movement.
Speaker 3:It was certainly about giving people rights, but it sprung from deep within the core of people's religious beliefs that God gives us all dignity.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and Martin Luther King Jr was Reverend Martin Luther King Jr and knew his scripture very well.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and did a good job of like when, in letter to a Birmingham from a Birmingham jail, like he took on his fellow companions and said how come you all have never preached about racism? Yeah, it's like I don't know if I've ever heard a homily about racism. Now that I think about it, maybe more recently, since we've been talking about this in the headlines, but I know I've only been a deacon for a year. I'm sure I have not preached on it.
Speaker 2:I have. I was thinking when you said we're one race, it's the human race, and if racism is a sin and it is, then the solution to that sin is also the solution to all the other sins which you pointed to in the scriptures, which is Jesus, who came to take away the sins of the world and to heal. So can you talk a little bit about how that works? Because a lot of times we want to solve our problems politically. Political problems need political answers. But we're more than just political people. We're also theological people, we're spiritual people. So how does the faith, how does scripture, how does Christ enter into the mess of this particular sin?
Speaker 1:I think the challenge is that we have a culture that has moved away from going to church and kind of embracing that in their life. I think sometimes we're in a contemporary society where it's like I'll just fit Jesus in when it's convenient, versus allowing Jesus to kind of be the driver with a lot of our decisions and so forth, because for me I think Jesus kind of settles the dispute right. We turn to church teaching, we turn to the Word of God. That kind of helps us to get over what I feel. Well, I see it this way. Well, if we all see it a different way, truth is kind of supposed to be that higher source of authority. Church teaching is supposed to kind of say hey, all right, I know, you feel this way, you feel that way. Well, what does God say about this right? What does the Scripture teach us? Well, what does God say about this right? What does the Scripture teach us? And so now the challenge for the church is how do we continue to be relevant in a world that is polarized, in a world that doesn't always want to hear what God has said and so forth? And so I think we need modern-day prophets who can kind of decode the word in a way that people can hear it and receive it, that resonates with them, that makes sense to say, oh, okay, but that's been kind of what I've been trying to do and I think that's how I've been able to be effective.
Speaker 1:I don't I don't necessarily say Jesus and say church teaching, but when I go into a lot of organizations to talk about how do we come together, I use a lot of teaching around humility and what the scripture says about humility. And the funny thing is that you know I'm at a business or I'm talking about why humility is the thing that grounds us, to help us to hear each other's perspective and practice empathy. And people are like I love this, it makes sense, it feels right, but it's just coming from church teaching. You know what I mean. We can't come together if we don't get beyond ourself to listen, and I think that's half the battle is that we're not hearing each other. Like some of the things that I've read and documents that have come out, you know, with this political discourse that's happening nationally, is that I'm reading this. I'm like that's not what's meant by this and it's like both sides don't understand each other. So how can we have an intelligent conversation when both sides have a misunderstanding of what the other side is trying to say.
Speaker 2:I agree, and this is exactly why I wanted to do this particular topic, and I also think sometimes, because of lack of humility, both sides are unwilling to listen to what the other is experiencing or understanding, to enter into what Pope Francis would call a dialogue, a situation of dialogue and walking together to understand the other person. And if you're just shouting all the time and you're not actually listening, then it's a breakdown of communication and it builds barriers between people and communities, even yeah, or even with the best of intentions, right, like sometimes we resort to box checking.
Speaker 3:You know, well, we did this little thing now on racism, so now we don't have to worry about it anymore. Like when I was a college administrator, I thought we were doing a really good job on this right. I thought we welcomed people to college campuses, that we made sure that they were cared for, that they had opportunities, that everything seemed on an even playing field. And then we actually asked people our alumni and people at the school how are we doing this? And they were like yeah, you guys are terrible.
Speaker 3:And we're like wait what Like no, and when we listened to them, we were like, yeah, all right, you're right, we are terrible at this and I'm not laughing at it, it's just like we're all blind, Like you know, I don't know the experience that somebody else is having while they're having it. I only know my own experience. I think we're doing a good job, but I have to listen more to see if we actually are.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean that's good. I mean, you think about? The gospel is a story about humility to a large extent. God says, hmm, they're struggling down there. He says, you know what, maybe I'm going to become God incarnate, right, I'm going to become one of them, right, I'm going to get closer to the situation to understand. And I think that's what leadership is about. Effective leadership is really active listening. I've read something somewhere before, I'm not sure who said it, but they said listening is an act of love. And I think to really hear and to really be able to be heard is a privilege. And I think we've got to go to Scripture and look at the Gospels and think about why was Jesus born in a manger, and think about why was Jesus born?
Speaker 1:in a manger. You know, why was this calling of our Lord to those who are marginalized right? And so we got to think about what does that mean in this context? How do we balance power? You know, when we have an imbalance of power? Because oftentimes somebody is invisible, somebody is not being seen, they're not being heard, they're not being valued.
Speaker 1:And so I think, now more than ever in this political climate, just in the culture that we live in, it requires a great deal of empathy to really put ourselves in someone else's shoes. And I stand in the gap because I believe God's given us the ministry of intercession to be able to say all right, you know, god, I just pray that both sides have a heart to hear and to receive, because when I see those on the far right, their vision is to make it better, and then those that are way on the other left, they feel like their vision is to make it better. And that's the challenge, because both people believe that they have a solution to do that. But humility says that if we're going to do it, we do have to come to the table and we do have to figure out what do we agree on, and you know, I've talked to Republicans, democrats, people that are nothing, people everything in between, and one thing I have found is that everybody wants the world to be safe.
Speaker 1:Everybody wants it to be safe for the kids. They want it to be better. So there's a lot of things that we do agree on, and sometimes I just wonder if it's the small minority that just has so much power over the media and influence, because when you live and you're just out there talking to your family and your friends and so forth, most people are just in the middle. They don't agree with this, they don't agree with that. They're just like I just want to be seen and be respected. Right, keep it simple.
Speaker 3:They just feel lost. There's nowhere to call home.
Speaker 2:But again, as we like said when we let off the show, it's the extremes that get the most attention because, those are the, the voices that are well, they're the loudest, but it's also by by the very fact that they are the extreme they're the ones that get the attention. And the people living um in the middle are often ignored. And again, again, our podcast doesn't get millions of hits because we don't necessarily go for the shock like shocking that we have Dr Knight on the show today. We try to have good conversations about really important things and I also think as a culture we don't know how to sit and talk and have conversations. We're so distracted by our phones we're just reading a headline that we actually don't read an entire article or listen to a whole conversation or have a family meal or get together and do what human beings are supposed to do, and because of that we become less human Soundbites. Yeah.
Speaker 3:The other thing too.
Speaker 3:I think that you know, racism doesn't just occur in the minds of you know four or five people or even just individuals, right, you know, these things kind of creep into systems, you know, and Catholic social teaching has kind of gotten us into that. You know, I was part of a parish at one point where we did charity really, really well, like there were very generous folks that were always giving of their time. They're always giving of their, of their money to various causes. But if you wanted them to sit down and talk about, you know well what are the injustices that are causing these things. They're like whoa, wait a minute. You know, I don't want any part of that. You know that's going to take too long. Nobody got time for that kind of thing and I think that's something that Catholicism in particular, I think can really get into. It's not, it's not just individualistic at this point. It's creeped into systems and those systems need to kind of change at a variety of levels.
Speaker 1:I also think we need to change the narrative, like they said. You know, when I was working on my doctorate degree, they said one of the ways you try to fight any ism is oftentimes you have to tell different stories. Sometimes people are telling the same story over and over and over and over again and it may not be reflective of what's really out there. And so when you hear the same story over and over and over again, it impacts how you see it, it impacts even what you believe about it, and so you know. For example, there's a scripture in Romans 10, 17. It says faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. And if you really analyze that, you can say fear comes by hearing too right.
Speaker 1:Like.
Speaker 1:What we believe oftentimes is that, man, we're living in a culture that shapes, you know, our beliefs, our values, but is from the stories that we read.
Speaker 1:So I had recently done a few sessions with some police departments and I began to have these conversations with them about humility and they were so open, right, and so I'm like would you guys be interested in having these conversations around different cultures, different communities? They're like of course we would love that, right, because there's a misunderstanding, so this story is not told right. Oftentimes the one story we see is that all cops are this way, right, or that all, whoever it is, are one way. So I think we have to tell different stories. We have to see pastors of different racial backgrounds and different cultures and communities coming together. Whether or not you're Catholic or I'm Lutheran or whatever people, I really think need to see people come together saying there are things that we do share in common, and we have to give people a template of what it means to come together and put some of our own agenda aside for the greater victory.
Speaker 2:I told Deacon Mike. I mentioned this a few times. I grew up in Parma and I did not travel a lot until 1997. I went to France for World Youth Day.
Speaker 2:John Paul II called all the youth of the world together and it was the first time in my whole young adult life that I saw people from every continent speaking all sorts of different languages and it was the first time I understood I was part of a universal church and it was the first time I understood I was part of a universal church.
Speaker 2:But gathering together one Lord, one baptism, receiving, like the word of God, eating his body and blood, and the unity that took place among that diversity blew my mind and I was so happy to be. And that's the church at her best. And so we have that as a model. I mean Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit came down on the apostles. They were sent out to all corners of the world not to separate but to gather together diversity of culture under one banner, our one Lord who comes to save all. So it's already baked into who we are as Christians, who we are as Christians and, as you say, a lot of times we forget the spiritual aspect of this and it certainly informs the political, but it's not simply political, and I think that's a really important thing to remember as we move forward here.
Speaker 3:And I think eventually we have to be involved in politics at some level, oh yeah. I mean, you know otherwise, we're just talking to ourselves.
Speaker 2:No, we are, but it's never apart from. It's not like we spin off our theology. This is the salt, light and leaven. It's what we add to the political discourse that we have in particular. So we're not making anything up, or it's not that these two are separated. It is that we are bringing our theology, we are bringing our spirituality to our political life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and could it be that problems are getting so bad that God might just be saying, hey, I'm going to bring the church and state together again? Hmm, right, because think about it, right, there was a point when oftentimes the religious spiritual leaders had access to the king, or whoever?
Speaker 1:had power, and they were. They had, they had the ability to give those in power, the political parties, a spiritual perspective so that they could include that right, and so I think that's been missing right. It's like, oh, separation of church and state. Well, when everybody was talking about this DI conversation, that we should include everybody, that people should be able to feel safe and be able to share what they feel. You know what I felt traveling? Christians didn't feel that way. Christians didn't feel that way. Catholics didn't feel that way. I felt that if I were to tell you my conviction, that I would be ostracized, that I would be judged right.
Speaker 1:So if one of the outcomes of DEI is to create a sense of belonging, then that would consist of that. We have to be able to tell the truth, too, and be able to speak about our faith. But oftentimes we're in working environments where people who are faith people feel like oh you know, I got to shrink, you know I can't say what. They're going to say I'm proselytizing, I'm trying to make people feel uncomfortable, but yet people can say whatever they want.
Speaker 1:They can have a nasty mouth or whatever, and that is acceptable. So I think throughout Scripture, you always will see that problems will arise and then God will cause a person of faith to rise with wisdom. You saw it in the case of Joseph, with Pharaoh, right? They said, well, there's this guy who can interpret dreams, right, Daniel?
Speaker 2:right.
Speaker 1:So maybe this is an opportunity and we have to reframe it and say that the world can't figure this thing out unless the church begins to speak truth and begins to be a light and a beacon in the midst of this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the separation of the powers of church and state were never meant to keep people from practicing their faith. It was, rather, that the state can't impose a particular way of religion on folks and we have to be salt, light and leaven and be able to live our faith boldly out in the world. I mean, if that's not the case, then why did Jesus send people out in the world, right? So, yeah, that's great, did you?
Speaker 1:guys see what was happening in Ohio State right, oftentimes, if you like, do a little digging and you're like man, this team just won the national championship. There's like a move of God happening on Ohio State. That move of God it's athletes, it's not just the black running back.
Speaker 1:It's the white quarterback, the black running. It's like Pentecost when God's spirit begins to move, it will bring people from all different racial backgrounds. God's spirit begins to move, it will bring people from all different racial backgrounds, communities, cultural backgrounds, because no one is so consumed with self, but they're consumed with how great God is, and I think that's where the real healing power happens, and it also lifts everyone up and you begin to really tap into your true power. And so I just believe that we have to get a little bit more bold. I love it you know what I mean Even when we're not in faith spaces, to invite people like would you like to pray? Sometimes you don't know what to say and you'd be surprised, and so I think this is an opportunity for the church.
Speaker 2:I agree. Thank you, Dr Knight.
Speaker 1:Very cool.
Speaker 3:Yeah excellent, cool. Now, dr Knight, you're a pastor. Tell us where.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I pastor in Elyria, south side of Elyria. Yeah, so we're in a marginalized part of the city of Elyria and we've been able to—the vision for our ministry a long time ago was to bring people from different communities together people from the Hispanic community, african-american community, the white community together to be able to worship.
Speaker 1:That was always my vision because I have read one time Dr King said the most segregated hour is Sunday at 11. And so I was like man, heaven's not going to look like that. So in a sense I've kind of been on this journey for a long time, most of my life, because for me growing up in Chicago, my mother was so nervous to send me to the local public school because of the gangs and stuff in the 90s and metal detectors and stuff, and so most of my education was from Catholic education.
Speaker 1:Oh great, because of the gangs and stuff in the 90s and metal detectors and stuff, and so most of my education was from Catholic education.
Speaker 1:Oh great, and so, you know, all my life I went to Catholic education and so I got to go back to my black neighborhood, go to Catholic school in the suburbs, and I was kind of like a hybrid, you know. So I learned about the Catholic teaching, I saw different things, and so for me I was in the middle saying, well, that's not true. I was telling both communities that's not true. And part of that is because when communities are isolated they tell their story and I just think God wants to begin to tear down those walls. And so if we tear down those walls and begin to have these conversations with the spirit of humility, I think we can really begin to move forward. Cool.
Speaker 2:Which is what we're doing right here.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and to not be afraid to ask the dumb questions. I remember when I was in Buffalo, we had the Mormons come in you can think of all the biases we have about Mormon people, right and we sat down and just said okay, anybody can ask any dumb question they want, Just throw it in this box and we'll answer them. It was so healing, Like the two communities started playing basketball together.
Speaker 3:They started coming to Mass. We started going to Testimony Sunday once a month just to hear them. It was really good. It really made a lot of sense.
Speaker 2:Dr Knight, does your church have a website? Yeah, our website is houseofhealingorg. And would you want your website to be attractive and shiny, or would you want it to be kind of old and crusty, because we've got something for you? We do.
Speaker 3:You know who brings people together? Tell me Briefcase Marketing. Oh, they do it all the time Because they make sure that your church doesn't have those scattered messages or that they look crusty. They look brand spanking new at them.
Speaker 2:Yes, briefcase Marketing creates marketing for your church or church-based ministry that inspires action and delivers results.
Speaker 3:They will clarify your message to attract the right audience. They'll streamline your website to convert visitors into donors, volunteers, parishioners. They'll create consistency to build trust and deepen relationships across every marketing platform, that's your ads, your social media, your email, all those things.
Speaker 2:And don't believe me, go check out their Google reviews. They've done superb work with our friends at Theology of the Body, cleveland, st John, kansas and Tremont. We'll put some samples of that work in our show notes and make it easy for you to check them out.
Speaker 3:With a clear message and a compelling website. Briefcase Marketing will help you get more donors giving you your mission, more volunteers ready to serve. Overall, they'll get you more people. Sure, then those people will share your message and become your advocates.
Speaker 2:So visit their website. That's briefcasemarketing. We've got their link in the show notes or text 308-627-1262. Our pal Dan First will take good care of you at Briefcase Marketing.
Speaker 3:Dan the man. All right, so let's take a look at the second Sunday. Wow, second Sunday of Lent already. Yeah, we're flying along. Transfiguration is the gospel. One of my favorite lines in all of Scripture. But he did not know what he was saying. Peter says oh wait, let's stay here, let's not go anywhere ever again. Let's just make three booths, one for you, one for Moses, one for Elijah, and let's just camp out here forever. And Jesus is like no Jerusalem.
Speaker 2:You got to move, you got to go we got to go.
Speaker 3:We got to get off this mountain, come on.
Speaker 2:I went to Mount Tabor speaking of the mountain in 2017 on a little pilgrimage and all over that church they have peacocks, because the peacock is the image for the transfiguration, because when its tail feathers are down it just looks like an ugly bird, and then when it throws its tail up, it's glorious. So that is Christ in his humanity and Christ in his divinity, and I think that's pretty cool. That's pretty cool.
Speaker 1:Any thoughts? I didn't know that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, now you throw it in your preaching.
Speaker 1:I know, yeah, any thoughts you know I was thinking about. You know, for those listening, like, what can we do? A lot of what we're attempting to do is to create like partnership, in the sense that there are co-creators. Right, it's this idea of saying that if I have all the money, you don't have a lot of it. If I'm from this community, you're from that community. How can we come together and we both can have a say, we both can kind of co-create what the solution might look like. And I think that's where we have an opportunity for those that are listening, right, because people who are listening are saying, hey, you know, how do I do that? You know I'm just a mom of three kids, and so forth. You know, when you go to the soccer game, you know, begin to invite other people out for lunch, to the picnic. You know, just begin to lean into it. Lean into that, that newness that comes from new relationships, new communities and so forth.
Speaker 3:So you know we talk a lot about belonging on here too, you know young adults in particular, they say that they need a community to belong to, and we, I think we forget that. You know we talk a lot about belonging on here too. You know, young adults in particular. They say that they need a community to belong to, and I think we forget that. You know that that's what people are ultimately looking for. They're looking for a place where they can feel safe, where they can feel like their family, you know, like where anything can happen.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And the church is family. It's supposed to be yeah, so we yeah, so we talked a lot about that. You know, belonging, dignity, justice, all these things, those are all right, at the heart of our teaching as Catholics.
Speaker 1:Cool.
Speaker 3:Indeed, dr James Knight, thanks for joining us. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2:We'll have this and a whole lot more next time here on Question of Faith. It was good man, we're by super fast.
